Genocide & The Democratic Debate
Sunday’s Democratic debate discussed genocide in interesting ways.
First up was the possibility of genocide in Iraq (or, how avoiding a question helps prevent genocide):
BLITZER: Governor Richardson, I want Governor Richardson to weigh in because I know you have been very concerned about what is happening with the genocide in Darfur.
What if some of the critics, some of the supporters of this war, are right, and a unilateral, quick U.S. withdrawal from Iraq -- and you want troops out by the end of this year -- does lead not only to an increased civil war, but to genocide in Iraq?
What moral responsibility does the United States have to deal with that scenario?
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D) NEW MEXICO: I've spent a lot of time in this region. I was U.N. ambassador. Eighty percent of my time was spent on the Iraq issue. I've talked to the leaders there.
And there is a fundamental difference between my position and the position of my good friends here. I believe that it's a civil war. I believe that there is sectarian conflict already. There is enormous turmoil.
...
BLITZER: But what about genocide? What about the possibility of genocide?
RICHARDSON: ... no residual -- no residual forces.
I think there has to be pointed out a difference in our approach. Obviously, genocide is something in Darfur. You know, I have been involved in that issue.
RICHARDSON: I believe what we need to do there is stop this genocide. Why don't we care about Africa?
BLITZER: What about Iraq, if it were, God forbid, to happen?
RICHARDSON: Well, obviously, I would keep troops in Kuwait, where they are wanted. I would move them to Afghanistan to fight Al Qaida.
But I believe that our troops have become a target. Our troops right now have done a magnificent job.
And so what -- the difference between all of us here is this: All of these resolutions, the funding -- supplemental appropriation on funding, on issues relating to timetables is not working because the president is vetoing.
Next up: find a job for former President Bill Clinton
OBAMA: Well, I think ... one of the former president's enormous strengths ... was his capacity to build alliances and relationships around the world. ...
One of the things that we're going to have to do is to return to that recognition that we can't simply lead with our military. The strength of our military has to be matched with the power of our diplomacy, the strength of our alliances.
That's how we are going to deal with the crisis in the Middle East. That's how we're going to end a genocide in Darfur, and I think that President Clinton's vision of our interdependence globally is something, and obviously Senator Clinton may have something to say about how I use Bill Clinton, so in fairness she should be able to respond.
And finally... how talking over each other ends the crisis in Darfur:
QUESTION: I would like to address the crisis in Darfur. At this time, as many as 400,000 people have been killed, millions or more are without food and shelter. If you were elected president, would role do you think the United States should play in addressing this terrible tragedy?
BIDEN: Wolf?
BLITZER: Yes?
BIDEN: I just was there.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Senator.
BIDEN: You know, we have to stop talking about it. A lot of talk goes on about it. The United Nations has already said they're prepared to put in a 21,000 force, including the African Union.
In fact, you have in the capital of Sudan the government saying, "We're not going to allow that to happen." They have forfeited their sovereignty by engaging in genocide.
We should impose a no-fly zone if the U.N. will not move now. We should impose a no-fly zone, and we should commit 25,000 -- 2,500 NATO troops. You could take out the Janjaweed tomorrow.
I went there. I sat in the borders. I went in those camps. They're going to have thousands and thousands and thousands of people die. We've got to stop talking and act.
BLITZER: All right.
BIDEN: That's why last Monday I went to see the president of the United Nations at the General Assembly, as well as the secretary general, to make that point.
BLITZER: Raise your hand if you agree with Senator Biden that the United States should use military force to stop the genocide in Darfur.
CLINTON: Are we talking about a no-fly zone...
EDWARDS: Wolf...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Hold on. Hold on.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: This is an important issue. This is an important issue.
(CROSSTALK)
CLINTON: Absolutely...
EDWARDS: Because you're talking about American troops.
CLINTON: ... an apology.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... no-fly zone, but very often, Senator Clinton, that could move on to other operations.
CLINTON: Well, but, we're not going to engage in these hypotheticals. I mean, one of the jobs of a president is being very reasoned in approaching these issues. And I don't think it's useful to be talking in these kind of abstract, hypothetical terms.
RICHARDSON: Well, I was there...
(APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: I think that's...
RICHARDSON: But I was there.
BLITZER: Governor, would you use force to save people in Darfur?
RICHARDSON: No, what I would do -- and I was there. I got a very fragile cease-fire put together there, three months ago.
And we made things a little better. I want with the Save Darfur Coalition.
This is what I would do. Number one, more U.N. peacekeepers. The government is refusing to make this happen.
Secondly, economic sanctions. We've imposed them, but they're weak. We need European countries to make them happen.
Third, we need China, to lean on China, which has enormous leverage over Darfur. And if the Chinese don't want to do this, we say to them, maybe we won't go to the Olympics. And lastly, what we need is a country, a foreign policy that cares about Africa, that cares that 300,000 human beings have died, have been massacred, that over 2 million have lost their homes.
BLITZER: All right.
RICHARDSON: Gender-based violence, rape. America should care about Africa, and we don't.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Hold on one second. What about that idea, Senator Dodd, about possibly boycotting the Beijing Summer Olympic games if China doesn't use its influence to stop the genocide in Sudan?
DODD: I think that goes too far, Wolf. Here, look. This is a major issue. There are ways of dealing with this. We're not only going to elect a president in November of 2008. We're going to elect, arguably, the most important, if not the most important, leader in the world.
And it's going to be critically important that we use the tools available to us to exercise the influence we'd like on China, on Russia and other nations to be more cooperative and participate in solving some of these problems here.
That's going to require real leadership based on experience that knows how to bring people together -- certainly, reminding the Chinese of the importance of this issue -- utilizing those tools that are available to us.
But the idea that you go in and stop the Olympics from happening I don't think gets you there. I think that's more likely to delay the kind of influence and support China ought to be providing.
BLITZER: Senator Edwards?
EDWARDS: Actually, I disagree with my friend, Chris Dodd, about that. I think that we should use whatever tools available to us.
And I have to say to Senator Biden, Governor Richardson, I applaud their being so vocal and out there on this issue. It's enormously important.
But I think all of us recognize that this is a piece of a bigger puzzle, which is America no longer has the moral authority to lead in the world.
EDWARDS: Watching a genocide continue has contributed to that, but it is not the only thing. The spread of HIV/AIDS, I think America ought to actually lead an effort to make primary school education available to 100 million children in the world who desperately need it, including in Africa...
BLITZER: We're going to go back to Jennifer.
But go ahead, Senator Obama, very quickly.
OBAMA: Two things -- one, we are going to continue to see some of these problems in ungoverned spaces. We've got a security interest and a humanitarian interest in dealing with this. We've got to work internationally to figure out how we can get forces to stop genocides like this.
Second point, our legitimacy is reduced when we've got a Guantanamo that is open, when we suspend habeas corpus. Those kinds of things erode our moral claims that we are acting on behalf of broader universal principles, and that's one of the reasons why those kinds of issues are so important.
(CROSSTALK)
DODD: ... cancel the Olympics.
That's not a bad question. You asked the question.
(CROSSTALK)
DODD: I'd like to know how my colleagues would feel about it.
BLITZER: If you agree that the U.S. should consider boycotting Asian Olympics...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Senator Dodd says he doesn't think that's a good idea. If you agree that it might be a good idea, raise your hand -- if necessary.
BIDEN: Wolf, the reason we have no moral authority is we're not acting. I heard the same argument with Milosevic. I went over there, found out there was genocide going on, came to your husband. I said, "We must act."
Now, look, we acted. Not an American was killed. We saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
By the time all these guys talk, 50,000 more people are going to be dead. They're going to be dead. And I tell you, I guarantee you, we have the capacity by setting up a no-fly zone to shut down the Janjaweed. That's our moral authority. Exercise it.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Nobody disagrees with the no-fly zone...
BLITZER: I want to go back to Jennifer, but I have to ask Governor Richardson, you're a former ambassador at the United Nations, and what I hear you saying, what you're saying is that you would consider the United States boycotting the Summer Olympic Games in China unless China starts getting tough with the government in Sudan.
RICHARDSON: Yes, I would. Because China purchases a lot of their oil -- most of it, a good part of it -- from Sudan.
And my view is that they are a leverage point. And they have not been strong on the Sudan.
We don't need, Joe -- with all due respect -- another military involvement. Iraq is enough. And we must get out of Iraq.
What we need to do is move forward with the toughest options. Am I for a no-fly zone? Yes. I think we need strong economic sanctions. And we lack the moral authority to build international coalitions, to fight genocide in Darfur. We should shut down -- I would as first day as president, I would shut down Guantanamo. I would shut down Abu Ghraib and secret prisons. That is the moral authority that we don't have.
Tuesday, June 5, 2007
